moop 20:01
Meeting Apr 6th 2022
Attending: Steve Barnett, Bob Wood, Joshua Kelly, Gareth Howell, Andrew Walters, Sam Roberts, Andrew A, Maq, Julian, James Spence, Greg, Malcolm C, Douglas Creek (edited)
moop 20:07
Fire last Sunday. Full details in blog post. From what we suspect tablesaw extraction had been left on after a long set of cuts causing an ember to move through to the extractor and start a fire after the member had left. Also melted part of tablesaw extraction area. Fortunately fairly contained (concrete ceiling) and fire brigade turned up and were able to resolve it quickly. Extractor unfortunately unrecoverable. Future of the tablesaw is under discussion.
Currently we consider that the risk of fire from this tablesaw may be too high going forward, although we got lucky this time. Will be doing risk assessments on this going forward.
Trustees had a professional fire risk assessment done about a month ago and were working through this.
Will be getting in contact with external professional bodies for advice about how we replace the tablesaw.
Currently some of the electrics are locked out by bizspace, we need these unlocked and assessed before the wood working area will be usable, in addition to assessment by trustees in the next few weeks.
20:09
Joshua: Concerned about residual risk of table saw. Need to do a full risk assessment, but currently contacted british woodworking association who are engaging with us about choosing a replacement extractor that is a good fit for our needs (potentially fully enclosed, dust fire abatement) or moving to a saw that is a better fit if the fire risk cannot be eliminated at the extractor end. May end up selling the current saw (repairable) to part finance a suitable replacement. Waiting for more professional advice and discussion with Bob before we can take this forward by discussion with members. Need to understand people's intended uses to make sure the replacement does not ruin people's uses of the hackspace while also controlling the risk to avoid issues in the future.
Nothing definite at this stage but we are working through a process.
This ties in with other things we had intended to bring to members at this time.
20:12
Malcolm: Approves of the fact decisions are being made and we are moving forwards.
Joshua: The next item is about risk assessment generally and updating the whole space. Limited number of trustees who cannot be experts in all area of the space and all uses. Will be requesting volunteers to help with risk assessments for areas they are familiar with. We will be providing a template to keep this easy and collate/review the results which should give us a good set of risk assessments for the space or at least a good starting point.
20:12
Julian: Just out of interest did the fire alarm trigger and was the rest of the Biz Space building evacuated if it did (where it was occupied of course at that time)?
20:13
Andrew A: Currently a manual system with no points inside our areas. The alarm was pulled by Bob after someone else had rung the fire brigade. The building was evacuated and fire brigade cleared the building while clearing it out.
20:14
Joshua: Currently limited automatic detection in Bizspace owned areas and none in leased areas. We are engaging with Bizspace's electrical contractor about repairs and ongoing electrical work. Will also be discussing putting manual call points in and discussing with Bizspace to see if we can tie in automated detection to their system.
20:15
Julian: Makes the point that if the user had been the last person worse this would have been worse.
Andrew A: We will be making sure this is raised with BizSpace's building manager with the intent of improving this.
20:16
Steve/Andrew A: Betty is already looking at improving signage. We will be making sure the call points are pointed out by this signage.
20:18
Joshua: Need to make it such that if (fingers crossed not) there is a reoccurance we can just hit the call point and leave, with no need to run around alerting people in other units.
20:19
Andrew A: Additional already looking at replacing all fire extinguishers and clearing exits (this was in progress before the recent fire).
20:20
Bob: Points out smoke make visibility very limited so need clear corridors.
James: just a question regarding fire and emergency entry/ exist our door system dose not unlock when alarm is raised just wanted to point this out as something we should look into
20:21
Bob: Points out assembly point but not currently call points.
Andrew A: We will be updating our member tours to cover these things soon so new members at least get the info and comms can be sent to existing members.
20:24
Joshua: Every of our doors has an emergency release button which can be pressed to release the door. Just push the button and the door will unlock. Someone will have to reset this later. Front door has latch but we are intending on replacing it. There is a British standard for emergency release latches which we can look into replacing that lock with for a bigger more obvious handle.
Bob: Does the emergency exit button open all doors.
Steve: No, it's designed to be a reliable failsafe so it just breaks the connection between the power source and the maglocks.
20:25
Andrew A: Will need further improvements to the system also to improve things.
20:25
James: correct only on the inside just thinking on entry for fire services / medic services if these people are locked out trying to get in :)
thank you for the info :slightly_smiling_face:
20:26
Malcolm: Asks if door exits are momentary or latching.
They latch on once pressed (and need manual reset) as do the fire alarm call points.
20:27
Malcolm: Points out that despite being put out quickly it was a serious fire.
Joshua: 100kg of wood + plastic was burned up in a couple of minutes - a lot of energy being released.
20:30
Joshua: 3rd leg of what we need to address is around skills for members. Ongoing issues with inductions which have been resolved in the past.
Joshua: Have engaged with West Notts College who have a lot of funding for adult education. Allowing them to run courses about safe operation of machinery. We had engaged them about running metalworking courses which they are currently working on, which should result in metalworking courses at a similar cost to current inductions. We are now looking to get similar courses developed relating to woodworking tools. Both Bob and Matt have pointed issues with maintenance and misuse of the table saw, which increases risk for the current or subsequent users. Important to upskill users to allow them to undertake basic tasks safely and give them the confidence to do so. Hopefully we will be able to present more on this at the next members meeting once West Notts get back to us.
20:31
Bob: I'm basically in favour of this. It helps us keep on the right side of the line between usability and potential of accidents.
20:32
Also shows that we take the issue seriously and are making efforts to mitigate risks.
20:32
Joshua: Fear is that if any makerspaces or organisations with similar structure to us have an accident it will start a campaign from the HRC. Wants to make sure we're in a good place to show that we know what we're doing should that occur.
20:33
Andrew A: (via text) @James Fire brigade would kick down the door(s) James, there's no method to let them in "nicely" without compromising our (already not great) security.
20:33
James: just if the blade was in good shape on the saw before the fire could this be the cause of the fire ? as the generation of heat with a bad blade could cause this ?
20:34
Bob: Does not think this was the case. Based on scrap left behind, which didn't have the burn marks you'd expect if this was the case. His feeling was it was likely sawdust buildup in the hopper or a spark from a sawn through nail as it was replaned timber. No hard facts, though.
20:35
Joshua: Seat of initial smouldering was beneath which implies something to do with clogging in extraction (e.g. agitated sawdust) but the source of ignition is not apparent.
20:35
Most important physical root cause is the fact the extraction system is clogging under the saw allowing it to reach this point.
20:36
Unfortunately this is a common maintenance issue on this saw as it has a small extracted volume. A saw with a larger area beneath would be less prone to this sort of issue.
Andrew A: Finances are available for a suitable replacement solution, especially as this is a well used tool.
20:36
Hackspace 2.6 (edited)
20:37
(Joshua presents plans)
20:37
PDF
G6 Renovations - rev 4(2).pdf
PDF
20:40
Progress had stalled before and during pandemic.
We are in a position to move on this with 2-3x the financial reserves we need to protect the space against short term shocks so trustees came to the conclusion that we should get this dealt with and it was worth engaging professionals to achieve this.
Getting G6 usable increase the amount of usable space both upstairs and down as it enables many positive things such as expanding woodworking.
Looked at architect and structural engineer's plans to try and identify the option that gives us what we need.
Most likely option is stairs running into the area adjacent to the airlock door and a disabled WC under the stairs. Intention is to install the toilet and downstairs area such that stairs can be installed later.
20:42
Original plans from Matt looked at putting welding on the concrete slab, but HSE have changed regulations such that welding fumes now have to be extracted. We have an existing extraction from someone's project through an existing penetration through the walls and installing the extractor with ducting to this existing hole allows us to avoid further changes to BizSpace's structure. This gives us a contained welding booth which can have a checkerplate floor to give it similar protection to the concerete floor.
This would have a stud wall on two sides and a plastic screen on the remaining wall, avoiding issues with fumes escaping or people getting flashed.
For laying out the machines a layout has been chosen that puts sockets in places that maximises flexibility.
20:44
Surface grinder will be placed in the small room at the back to contain the large amount of silica dust.
Concrete pad will be used to support the larger milling machine and lathe to avoid issues with weight in addition to a floor standing drill or a pedestal for the current drill.
Myford lathe and pantograph will be racked in with 1.5m gap between machines providing a series of small self-contained workspaces.
20:44
Bob: Asks where welders will be grinding.
Joshua: This will be inside the welding area, so the dust will be contained.
20:48
The other wall has a bench for bridgeport tooling, and a run with the horizontal bandsaw and donkey saw allowing room for a long length of material.
Workbenches, belt grinder, and linished are on the remaining wall with those tools further way to keep dust out.
New parts washer also added. Shotblaster added inside the welding area.
Potential for a compressor and air receiver to live permanently under the stairs, once the stairs exist, keeping it out of the way and giving us an air system for the area.
Gareth: Asks about tool storage
Joshua: Tool storage will be local to the machine, and a company in Derby will give us a very good deal on full height mechanic style tool cabinets. £80-90 per unit is sufficiently cheap that we will likely save the cost on reduction in tools being lost over the next 4-5 years.
Large workbenches have significant storage capacity underneath for metalworking hand tools making it much easier to put things away as the place to put things away is where you already are.
20:50
Front door: Will; be asking contractors to either refurbish or replace to ensure it meets current security standards for external doors and to fit an electronic mortice lock like we have on the existing door.
As it is fully external its locking mechanism would be a permanantly locked mortice lock with an emergency break glass key box to allow exit in an emergency. Not ideal, but it provides a compliant means of escape without costing exorbitant money.
20:50
James: really like the layout :smile: would it be worth treating the whole floor so its suitable so if we ever need to move machines around we don't need to worry so much about the flooring and machines going through it
20:52
Bob: Does not want to give up option of making that our front door.
Joshua: Intention is to keep that option open. It gives us the option to enable gatekeeper, but we need to think about access mechanisms.
Andrew/Joshua/Steve: Keeping this option cheap so we've not got a sunk cost if we revamp that door in the future.
20:53
Bob: Welder extraction is not very high up outside. 2 if not 3 floors above it. Will this be acceptable.
Joshua: Need to review if this will require us to have stack upstairs. May need to sacrifice some space in the welding bay if an internal filtered extractor is required. So far seems like dispersal will meet requirements due to volume of air vs volume of fumes extracted, but needs further thought.
20:54
Bob: Could windows be used as passthrough for an extractor.
Joshua: Window in planned welding bay has a passthrough, but BizSpace has currently welded plates over this windows. Would be nice to replace them with grilles to give us some natural light. Would need to negotiate with BizSpace.
20:55
Joshua: Points out walls in red are new installations as are the doors in those walls. Grinding room already has a door and prepared opening, contractors will just need to fit that and make good internal surfaces. May in future want to add additional door so we have called out specific studs to be installed inside the wall allowing this door to be added later.
20:56
Bob: Asks if we have an additional door for that to be fitted now.
Joshua: We will need to check on that.
20:59
Bob: Asks about surface grinder. Will it ever work.
Joshua: Worked perfectly when it came in except for wear. Restoration stalled for bearing pack, which we have and need to fit. While machines are out of commission for moving we can get the bridgeport fixed while it is torn down and also have them finish off the surface grinder work - risk is if the bearing pack is overtightened the bearings are ruined so there is a lack of confidence in installing it ourselves which is what resulted in it stalling.
20:59
Bob: Asks about regrinding the bed
Joshua: It can reach over its entire surface to grind the bed and chuck so it can grind itself in.
21:00
Bob: Why are linishers and anything producing dust not in the room with the surface grinder
Joshua: Boxed in area is taking up space but can be used for a workspace and precision measuring tools, but this keeps out the linisher for space reasons. May be able to get pedestal grinder in.
21:00
Layout of machines is not currently fixed and flex is designed in.
21:01
Joshua: May have served us better if that room had been left as a toilet but we are where we are.
21:02
Bob: Iffy about putting surface plate next to surface grinder.
Joshua: It's definitely a dichotomy. Working with the equipment together, but need to adhere to keeping the surface plate covered to avoid trashing it. This layout is a representative example from a set of 6 or 7 layouts.
21:04
Floor discussion. We will never get over the loading limits on the wooden floors so with heavy equipment it will have to be over a joist. Heaviest items will be on concrete to get around this for those allowing more flexibility for the lighter machines. Remaining parts of floor will be covered with ply to keep them level and avoid trip hazards. Welding area gets chequer plate. The whole thing will be coated with a floor paint to keep them cleanable. Corridor and other areas will be left with the current floorboards.
21:05
Moves on to show electrical layout with the various sockets, and then the lighting arrangement.
21:05
Bob: Would it be possible to enlarge welding area to bring it up to the corridor door allowing room for linishers and pedestal grinder + maybe another grinder with additional wheels? (edited)
21:07
Andrew W: We could go through a great many layouts. There is flexibility.
Steve: I think the better option if the welding area is too small would be to rotate the plastic curtain 90% to give it an extra bay
Joshua: Could use self sealing dust curtain in that orientation to further separate the grinders while still separating that area from arc flash and welding fumes,.
21:07
(will add self sealing curtain to the quote)
21:08
Intention is to gather 5 or 6 quotes, understand market rates and adjust expectations accordingly starting with getting it done professionally to ensure it happens.
21:09
Lighting design. Spacing is a little odd as it's not an orthogonal grid, but looking at lighting design for complex tasks requiring visual accuity there are standards to allow 1000lux for detailed work and minimum 300lux across the rest of the area. High luminosity just where doing detailed work to put light where it is needed and less where it would be overwhelming.
21:11
Next page shows a zoning system to indicates which lights are controlled together. Grinding and welding booths have their own switches, as does the toilet. Main door switch allows control of all zones to avoid having to walk across the workshop to turn lights off when leaving. This will be integrated with the current lighting system to control the zones.
Emergency exit bulkheads in the bays and a hanging one where the welding curtain is.
Last page shows pluming for the saniflow required for the toilet.
21:12
Welcome feedback after which we can go ahead and get quotes to present back to the members what it looks like will be achievable.
Bob/Gareth: Looks excellent so the work is appreciated.
21:13
Joshua: Hoping we got a lot of community spirit out of work on downstairs. Felt like getting professionals to do it would lose that, but it occurred that just the workshop move alone will be a very big task so there should be plenty of opportunity for getting people involved and to have ownership will provide some of that.
21:14
Discussion of issues with getting help for woodwork clean up.
21:16
Announcements and Events
Elections are coming up. We will be asking people to self nominate soon. 4 positions, need 5 people to stand for the elections to be valid.
Nominations likely 20th April, will be announce officially sooner with an email with details and description of the role.
21:17
Remember being a trustee can help you get stuff done and you can help the space run.
21:17
Feel free to contact the trustees privately if you want more info or want to shadow us to see what is involved.
21:18
Hack the Space weekend - discussed last month and April 23rd is outlined as the next day. Will be an email going out soon. Encourage anyone to turn up and help clean the dusty area, clean and repair tools, and myriad other tasks Betty can't make it but will be helping to organise.
21:19
EMF still being planned. Recent call from the village team about layout. Will be having a quick meeting on that front soon.
If you're attending please put yourself on the wiki, if only so we know who is going.
Workshop tents is interesting and may save us some costs.
21:21
Combat Robotics event. April 30th.
Gareth: Sam can speak a little about it, but we're getting together tomorrow to work out communications. Want people to be able to come along with ideas and plans but also make it an open event where people can come along and find out about it. Need to think about how to make people feel safe - maybe use Event Brite to get an idea of numbers and reiterate points about masks and hand sanitisers in close proximity. Want to keep it inclusive while making sure people feel confident coming to the space.
21:22
Steve: Sam has been working on some modular laser cut / 3D printed parts and I've been working on some electronics that may provide a basic starter approach controlled by a phone to avoid people needing an expensive transmitter which may provide an easy quick start for interested people.
21:27
Actions and Minutes
Craft room tables acknowledged.
Gareth: Asks about emails.
Andrew A: Steve has talked to Matt
Steve: Moving forward but it is slow. We think adding people with Microsoft emails to teams combined with the team emails forwarding everything (lots of spam) has got us flagged as spammers. Those addresses have been removed which may get us off the block list, but may take a while. Plans about reorganising email to move from forwarding to shared mailboxes are in progress, which will help to improve this and allow members to avoid using their personal emails for team purposes.
CNC Team
Douglas: Got table last Friday. Has been made for a while but courier didn't get our details. A bit unfortunate as the CNC could have avoided water damage from the fire being extinguished.
Douglas: Table currently in blue room due to the internal door being bolted shut. Will need to find a time to move it and unscrew that door closed. Likely to be Hack the Space weekend.
21:28
Likely to need at least 4 people to safely get it up the stairs.
21:30
Makes more sense to set the CNC up again once it's moved vs getting it back up and running and then repeating that process once it is moved.
Will need a suitable trolley to get the CNC up in the lift without fiddly logistics.
Joshua: We recently acquired some machine skates to assist in the metalworking move when it happens (in team storage). This may help us to move it if we put it on a secure surface and use the skates to move it into the lift.
Andrew W suggests Biz Space may have a suitable trolley.
Bob suggests the pallet truck may help if it will fit in the lift.
Mike exits.
21:31
Bob asks if we've checked for water inside the CNC driver box. We should make sure of this.
21:31
Douglas plans to take things apart and check soon.
21:32
Douglas asks about sewing machine table for Denford lathe. Bob suggests it will need a bit of timber a bit larger than the current top.
21:33
Douglas: Matt informed him the compressor that was planned for the CNC is his, and is damaged.
21:34
Bob: Current compressor leaks. We should also drain the water out and maybe replace it.
21:35
Joshua: Compressors with decent CFMs and decent sized tanks. Should probably obtain a decently sized compressor for the CNC.
21:35
Douglas: Not 100% necessary now but good to investigate for the future.
21:36
Joshua: Has explored getting the current large air receiver subjected to hydro tests and documented. Will still likely want a smaller compressor for upstairs.
21:37
Andrew: Asks what CFM would be required.
Douglas/Bob: should be pretty minimal for the CNC router.
21:38
Andrew W: Suggests maybe a blower is a better choice if it needs to run for a long time.
21:38
Douglas: CNC stalled while waiting for the move, but wants to improve documentation.
21:40
Douglas: Superbox is relatively well documented, Denford less so. Matt has sent a lot of useful info which will be sifted through and added to wiki once tested.
21:41
James: WRT adding air to CNC, would it be worth adding a quick disconnect so the woodwork compressor can be used temporarily.
Douglas: Hoping this can be done. Has some pneumatic press fittings for quick disconnect, but buying a manifold but may be more effective.
21:42
Joshua: Screwed fitting on manifold by CNC would allow connecting with a jumper hose when needed without stopping the compressor being used elsewhere in the short term. (edited)
21:43
Douglas: Likely need an enclosure when compressor is used, but for now current enclosure is good. Really need it moved soon so hopefully by Hack the Space day.
Craft
Embroidery machine.
21:45
Andrew A:
Currently broken and not repairable at reasonable cost. Looking at other options both new and second hand.
Couple of recent options on Facebook Marketplace.
Expensive £1700 brother - very new and unused - this is the higher end of the options but not industrial level. Likely too pricey for us.
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21:45
Would work with current software, Joshua: which is a big consideration as it is expensive
21:46
Joshua: Maybe not unreasonable as a price compared to metal/woodworking tools. Especially if members are willing to pledge.
21:46
Andrew A: Issue with FB Market Place is things come and go, but this has been up for 12 weeks
21:47
Smaller simpler Brother machine. £550 (was £400 but seller spent money fixing it up).
Much more reasonable price, still a Brother machine so will work with the software we have.
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21:48
Hoping to get a feeling for what people think about them. Craft machine currently Andrew A and Betty and Andrew does not currently use the embroidery machine.
Looking for feedback and an impression of whether it's worth pursuing, by pledge or otherwise. Maybe late pledge after the fact.
Greg: Asks if they can produce multi colour mission style patches.
21:48
Andrew A: Can do multi thread stuff, but you likely have to do many passes changing the thread in between.
21:49
Greg: Wanted to make sure we're not missing out on advanced features.
Andrew A: Pretty standard that manual thread change is required at this level. The other big factor is bed size.
21:51
Joshua: The significant challenge is usually getting the design in the software such that each of your colours doesn't have to stitch through the previous one (and stall or break needles). This gets easier with experience to spot before you run.
Andrew A Previous machine was well used and abused. £550 one would keep us going while the more expensive one would be an investment going forward.
21:51
Example from £550 machine.
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21:52
Discussion of charging for tool usage.
Bob suggests previous machine cost a lot and we pledge drived for it, but it didn't last long. Do we need to charge say £1 for a 3 hour session to cover the cost of repair or replacement.
21:54
James: Suggests it may be worth getting a better machine if it will last longer.
Gareth: Concurs with this. Suggests it would likely be worth the investment.
Joshua: Likely need to defer to people with expertise e.g. Betty.
Andrew A: Unfortunately people from existing pledge drive are not active currently
Gareth: Asks if we'd need to pledge drive if we have the grants?
Discussion about whether a more expensive machine. Difficult as the cheap machines may be fragile resulting in low usage if reliability is a problem.
21:55
Andrew A: Potentially not pledging but charging for usage to cover repairs and claim money back to fund a future machine is a good approach. Difficult decision. Will discuss with Betty.,
21:56
James: Suggests Brother machines a family member uses may not be robust enough. If it's going to be abused worth looking into industrial machines but the costs are high. Maybe worth looking at industrial machines on the used market.
21:58
Steve: Need to find who the user base is and discuss it with them.
Andrew A: Suggests £550 machine would work as similar to the previous one so long as people are well trained. More expensive machines mostly add surface area or extra features like combined sewing machine/overlocker which is less useful for us.
21:59
Example of very expensive industrial machine hard to justify and members may not even be able to use it.
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21:59
James: Maybe worth going for cheaper machine and it it breaks we decide we need to step up and pay more if demand is there.
22:00
Andrew A: Will discuss with Betty and with trustees but leaning towards a cheaper machine.
22:00
No other team updates.
22:03
Vending Machine Acrylic
Greg: Suggests adding bits of acrylic in the vending machine would save trips to Kitronik to get the required colours. Volunteers to get ~£100 of acrylic of various types and cut into different sizes in a rack. Members could pay via vending machine and price to suit.
Andrew A: Sounds like a sensible item.
Steve: I used this facility when we had it previously and I think it would be good to trial it again.
Greg: Happy to trial it and see how it goes. (6 months or so then report back and carry on or change)
Andrew A: Suggests writing it up and putting it on the wiki so we know the plan and others can take over if necessary. Happy for the space to pay a small amount to try it out and trustees will support.
22:04
Greg: Asks for vending machine contact details
Andrew A: Likely the trustees or something to ask about on Slack. We can edit the prices and slots on HMS.
22:05
Steve: Just need to set the prices and label the slots appropriately.
Andrew A: Suggests Hack the Space weekend might be a good time but can contact trustees to maybe do it sooner.
Discussion about whether infrastructure or Snackspace team would be best.
22:06
Andrew A/Steve: First step is probably a list of the SKUs/slots needed.
Greg: £84 for a nice multipack
Bob: Volunteers to buy on woodworking card if trustees can load it up
22:07
Andrew A: Will ask Ian first because laser team, otherwise will take up Bob's offer
22:07
Douglas: Asks about thicker acrylic
22:08
Greg: May reorganise the system into 3/4 price codes if the number of sizes/thicknesses gets more complicate
22:08
Bob: Suggests making a poster as people do not always read our comms
22:09
No Financial Update
No AOB
Meeting Closed